Sep 012013
 
“I want you to be a little more aggressive. Kiss me more often.
I don’t just want to kiss… I want to be kissed.”

He looked confused, understandably so.

Over the course of our relationship, I’ve been quick to swat him away when he tries to kiss me.

At some point, he stopped trying.

It seems I’ve inadvertently ‘trained’ him not to. He doesn’t kiss me unless he’s told to kiss me. (He reciprocates when I kiss him, of course, but that’s another thing entirely.)

When I said I wanted a little more aggressiveness, more unsolicited kisses, he looked confused and asked me to clarify. He has to know what I want in order to give it to me.

What I want…?

That’s part of the problem.

I don’t always want the same actions and behaviors from him, so I can’t tell him he should always do this or that.

Sometimes I enjoy a little aggressiveness. Sometimes I don’t want any. Sometimes I appreciate aggressiveness for it’s own sake, and other times, I want it because I enjoy striking it down — I like the playfulness of a little back and forth and I enjoy giving him a little leeway just to watch his frustration when I snap him back to obedience.

I don’t usually know what I’ll want before we start playing, and besides, what I want changes as the night progresses. When we start, maybe I’ll want a little aggression, but an hour later, I might want him to be totally obedient and passive. Or instead, I might want him to be very good and very still so I can play with him for while, and then I’ll want a little aggressiveness after I’m good and hot.

I can’t predict any of that. When it comes to aggressiveness — with kissing in particular — I don’t know what I’ll want or when I’ll want it. If I don’t know, how the hell is he supposed to know?

And, sure, I could continue telling him “kiss me now,” but that’s not aggressive. Telling him to kiss me isn’t him wanting to kiss me… it’s him following commands. While I appreciate him following instructions, that doesn’t make me feel wanted the same way as being kissed makes me feel wanted.

Sometimes I want to feel wanted. Sometimes I don’t.

I tried to explain all of that to him, but I realize my inconsistency and ambiguity is confusing for him. Even if I had explained it well, that doesn’t help him know how to behave in a given situation. He wants to be obedient, and of course, he doesn’t want to make unwanted advances, but I can’t tell him how to do that.

For lack of a better option, he’s just going to have to deal with it. I want a little more aggressiveness and I want him to kiss me more often, but I also don’t want to dictate the terms and conditions in any particular moment.

He will just have to try me. I told him I’d make it clear if his actions are unwelcome. If his actions aren’t wanted, he’ll have to remember that my rebuff isn’t a rebuff for all times — it’s just for the moment.

After my explanation, he wrapped his arms around me, held tight, and kissed me passionately.

I should have seen that coming, right?

For a few moments, I considered allowing him to continue kissing me — that would have reinforced to him that I really do want more kissing, more often.

But I didn’t want to be kissed at that particular moment…

And so I swatted him away.

Poor J.


† He’s been more ‘pushy’ (brave?) with other activities (see: ass worship), and that went well for both of us. :) But I think I’ve been too consistent in rebuffing him when he moves to kiss me — I’ve demonstrated it’s unwanted so many times that he really believes it (understandably so). Unfortunately, his being aggressive isn’t always unwanted. Domme fail.

 

  25 Responses to “accidental submissive training: he won’t kiss me”

  1. This is how I feel when I’m switchy. Normally I fall into more of a “sub” mode that plays like this: Spank me. No, not that hard. Like this. No I want you to do it this way. Not that fast! Fine. Here, I’ll spank you.

    • Normally I fall into more of a “sub” mode that plays like this: Spank me. No, not that hard. Like this. No I want you to do it this way. Not that fast! Fine. Here, I’ll spank you.

      That doesn’t sound like sub mode. ;)

      With that said, who cares!! As long as you’re both getting what you want and what you need, it’s all good-hot-sexy-fun. :)

      do it this way. Not that fast! Fine. Here, I’ll spank you.

      This made me laugh! :D

  2. Have you thought about requiring J ask to kiss you, or tell you he wants to kiss you? Or would the talking about it ruin it?

    • Have you thought about requiring J ask to kiss you, or tell you he wants to kiss you?

      I have. :) I’ve done that, actually.

      Or would the talking about it ruin it?

      Unfortunately, yes. It does ruin it a little. :(

  3. So you want it when you want it except when you don’t. Lol! Poor J!

    • So you want it when you want it except when you don’t. Lol! Poor J!

      Exactly! See, you understand!

      Lol! Poor J!

      I know. :) I guess this is one of the ways I’m difficult.

      Fortunately, this isn’t a big issue or anything — just something I’m trying to figure out how to communicate better. (spoilers: I’m not doing so well)

  4. LOL – and I thought Lady Pagan was unique in this regard. For me, it’s kinda like tip-toeing across a mine field and half way across hearing a *click*. Talk about a decision point…

    At the end of the day, though, it’s not really much different than cycling through the same type of desires in a vanilla relationship. Sometimes your partner is in the mood for ‘x’, sometimes not. At least this way I get timely and honest feedback, even if it is delivered a little more *cough* forcefully. 8)

    • For me, it’s kinda like tip-toeing across a mine field and half way across hearing a *click*.

      This might be my all-time favorite description of the feeling of impending (and imminent) doom. :)

      At the end of the day, though, it’s not really much different than cycling through the same type of desires in a vanilla relationship. Sometimes your partner is in the mood for ‘x’, sometimes not.

      Absolutely. :)

      At least this way I get timely and honest feedback, even if it is delivered a little more *cough* forcefully.

      Question, though (one I’m not sure you can answer, but I’ll ask anyway). If you’re in a situation where she isn’t clear (or you misunderstand) and you get it ‘wrong,’ does she ever shut down? (instead of providing honest — and forceful — feedback)? Are her feelings ever hurt and/or she isn’t sure what to do (or chooses to do nothing)?

      • Here’s my take on it:
        I think my response to Paganboy is tempered by the fact that we’ve been married for 15 or so years. And having explored each others psyche over the years, we know already *most* of the areas that might cause the other pain, shame, or whatever it might be. And we know our selves well enough that rarely does something come up that we can’t identify, although not always immediately.

        There’s a couple of other factors – trust and communication (I know, you’ve heard *that* before, but even in a relationship as long as ours, this gets tested, reinvented, honed and restarted all the time – otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to go for 13 years of ‘nilla and suddenly switch to D/s) being primary.

        We *know* that the other has no intent to harm (trust). Stopping whatever is going on and asking for clarification or giving feedback is totally cool (communication) …. shutting down really only happens when I have to sort something out for myself before I can explain it to him. I try to let him know that so he doesn’t get freaked out.

        Minefield, indeed. He’s such a big baby! Usually the worst he gets on this small of an issue is “the look” until he steps back, apologizes and goes on to complete painting my toenails. Sheesh.

        • Thanks for the response, LadyPagan. :)

          shutting down really only happens when I have to sort something out for myself before I can explain it to him. I try to let him know that so he doesn’t get freaked out.

          I’m working on doing the same — at the least, letting him know why system shut down is happening. If I can’t do it in the moment, I’m try to let him know after the fact. It’s a far-from-perfect system, but like everyone else, we’re a work in progress.

          Minefield, indeed. He’s such a big baby! Usually the worst he gets on this small of an issue is “the look” until he steps back, apologizes and goes on to complete painting my toenails

          Come on now… toenail painting can be a minefield! Painting without mucking up the cuticles is difficult… :)

          • Come on now… toenail painting can be a minefield! Painting without mucking up the cuticles is difficult… :)

            LOL, true…. especially while maintaining the proper position.

            A nod to your work in progress – as long as it progresses, you’ve got it right!

  5. This sounds so incredibly familiar! I completely relate… to J. The husband has basically the same reaction to physical affection of any kind that you do. Most of the time he isn’t receptive to it at all. Occasionally it’s welcome. And he has his way of letting me know that he’s open to it without coming out and saying things like “I wish you’d kiss me right now.” or “I could really use your touch.” He has this certain “available” attitude to him. I wish I could explain it better. It might be helpful to you. But really it’s just a feeling I get from his mannerisms and attitude toward me. Not very helpful, I know.

    So at any rate, he’s basically “trained” me (yes, the sub trained the dom. irony) not to try to kiss him (by pulling away or standing there like a statue), holding hands (by pulling away), or even giving him a nice squeeze (he has been known to literally walk right out of my arms and push me off of him). I don’t know about J, but it certainly makes *me* feel very much undesired. I never considered that since I quit trying to have physical affection outside a scene that wasn’t basically initiated by the husband… that he might not feel desired. Of course he is. But it was hurtful to me to be consistently rebuffed. And since I’m tolerant of emotional pain but not *that* tolerant, I just stopped. Perhaps the behavior was hurtful to both of us. And perhaps I need to discuss adding hugs and kisses to our list of 24/7 D/s inclusions!

    • And he has his way of letting me know that he’s open to it without coming out and saying things like “I wish you’d kiss me right now.” or “I could really use your touch.” He has this certain “available” attitude to him. I wish I could explain it better. It might be helpful to you. But really it’s just a feeling I get from his mannerisms and attitude toward me. Not very helpful, I know.

      It is helpful. :) I think you’re right that if I had an ‘available’ attitude, J would be able to read it better and respond in kind. My problem is that I haven’t often (if ever) demonstrated an ‘available’ attitude… so he has no idea what it looks like. (Honestly, I’m not sure I know what it looks like either).

      So at any rate, he’s basically “trained” me (yes, the sub trained the dom. irony) not to try to kiss him (by pulling away or standing there like a statue), holding hands (by pulling away), or even giving him a nice squeeze (he has been known to literally walk right out of my arms and push me off of him). I don’t know about J, but it certainly makes *me* feel very much undesired.

      I can commiserate with the feeling of being less-than-desired, but for very different reasons. I’m lucky that J is nearly always open to my advances, kisses, hugs, and hurts. If he rebuffed me like that, it would really hurt my feelings.

      that he might not feel desired. Of course he is. But it was hurtful to me to be consistently rebuffed.

      Fuck. I don’t think I ever imagined what it might feel like to him to be rebuffed. I’m an asshole… dammit. I hate when I realize that I might have been an asshole.

      Maybe? I dunno. He’s never mentioned it before, and while I’m sure he swallows his share of ‘little’ hurts, I hope that if it really did bother him, he’d tell me about it. Ok… the more I think about it, the more I think this wouldn’t bother him. Jeebus… I really overthink things, don’t I?

      Anyway, thanks for your comment, anonymouskinky… it is helpful. :)

      • “He’s never mentioned it before, and while I’m sure he swallows his share of ‘little’ hurts, I hope that if it really did bother him, he’d tell me about it. Ok… the more I think about it, the more I think this wouldn’t bother him. Jeebus… I really overthink things, don’t I?”

        Maybe you overthink things, but maybe not. I will say that I’m not J. But…

        It took me over a year AFTER THE HUSBAND STARTED WANTING MY PHYSICAL AFFECTION BACK (guess he missed it after it had been gone a while) to bring it up to him that it was hurtful when he was always shooting me down. So if you want to know how J feels about it, ask him. Maybe you have already! At the very least, it probably won’t hurt anything to ask. :)

        • So if you want to know how J feels about it, ask him. Maybe you have already! At the very least, it probably won’t hurt anything to ask. :)

          It’s on my list of things to do for next weekend… along with the bondage and the fucking, of course. :)

  6. “When I said I wanted a little more aggressiveness, more unsolicited kisses, he looked confused and asked me to clarify. He has to know what I want in order to give it to me.”

    How I’d respond:

    As my submissive, one of your jobs is to understand my moods. In some moods I want you to be aggressive and kiss me. In some moods I want you to be aggressive so I can slap you down. In some moods I want you to not be aggressive. You need to learn to recognize which mood is which, and respond appropriately.

    And I will have much fun with the frequent chances to punish you the learning curve will give me. *play growl*

    Suggestion:
    Yeah it will kill a bit of the mood to tell him you want him to be aggressive. But if you want him too be aggressive and he isn’t, maybe telling him, “You see this mood I’m in, when I’m in this mood I like you being aggressive with kissing me,” will help him in the future.

    • As my submissive, one of your jobs is to understand my moods. In some moods I want you to be aggressive and kiss me. In some moods I want you to be aggressive so I can slap you down. In some moods I want you to not be aggressive. You need to learn to recognize which mood is which, and respond appropriately. [emphasis added]

      Theoretically, I agree with you. But, understanding and recognition are two different things. While I absolutely agree that I should expect him to understand my moods, I can’t expect him to recognize them (and that’s my own fault).

      He does understand that I have different moods and different wants, and more importantly, he wants to be responsive.

      But in all fairness, I haven’t done much that would allow him to recognize any of that. I’ve been guarded about my moods (and often, hesitant to express what I really want). I haven’t been clear or direct. For that reason, J has very little to draw on in attempting to recognize and respond to my moods. Is my fault that he doesn’t have much to go on, but I’m trying to find a way to remedy that. :)

      Yeah it will kill a bit of the mood to tell him you want him to be aggressive. But if you want him too be aggressive and he isn’t, maybe telling him, “You see this mood I’m in, when I’m in this mood I like you being aggressive with kissing me,” will help him in the future.

      You’re right on this. It will kill the mood, but that can’t be avoided. I have to take steps to be clearer and give him something to go on in the future.

      Thanks for your perspective and for the advice. :)

  7. I so understand this (with the large exception of the domme thing). I want him to approach me and kiss me and want me, not just be agreeable to what I come up with.
    And I don’t always want to initiate. Poor J, but you two discuss so well, I can’t feel sorry for him. In the end, he understands and so do you.

    • I want him to approach me and kiss me and want me, not just be agreeable to what I come up with.

      Yes to this. :) Each in our own way, I think everyone wants to be wanted.

      Poor J, but you two discuss so well, I can’t feel sorry for him. In the end, he understands and so do you.

      You’re right. :) Yes, poor J, but only to a point.

      I have my fair share of shortcomings, but 99.9% of the time, I’m quite sure he’ll never find anyone that loves him more, treats him better, or wants him as much as I do. :) Even with my flaws, I’m pretty fucking great. :D

  8. This is a blog where I can identify with J’s confusion. I would suggest you might think of it in this way: J is like me; your beloved puppy dog. And all this time you have trained him not to jump on the couch. But suddenly he walks in the room and you think, “Oh… he’s soooo irresistable. If only he would jump on the couch and cuddle with me like he used too!”
    .
    J, the obedient puppy dog, has learned in the past that he’s never supposed jump on the couch, because if he does he will be slapped. What to do? Mistress is giving me signals to jump up on the couch, but if I do she’ll only slap me down. WTF does she really want? Is it really okay to jump up on the couch? Or is she testing/teasing me?
    .
    In my case, it was provoking the Master after presentation. He insisted on this old-school English school-master like type of high protocol stuff, but after greeting rituals he wanted me to behave like a curbstone slut with PMS and a chip on her shoulder. Naturally harsh punishment always ensued along with the emotionally painful admonishment, “We can’t carry on if you continue to disappoint me this way!” Once around was confusing. Twice around was frustrating. And there was no third time, which caused underlying disappointment from the Top. It left me to this day wondering, WTF?
    .
    So in the case where a sub doesn’t know which behaviour is pleasing or not, they resort to “safe behaviour”. I believe subs can become true geniuses when it comes to reading their Top’s attitudes, but seldom can they read their Top’s mind.

  9. I would suggest you might think of it in this way [. . .] J has learned in the past that he’s never supposed jump on the couch, because if he does he will be slapped. What to do? Mistress is giving me signals to jump up on the couch, but if I do she’ll only slap me down. WTF does she really want?

    I’m in total agreement. I realize the miscommunication is my own, and I also realize it’s confusing for him. I get that.

    Naturally harsh punishment always ensued along with the emotionally painful admonishment, “We can’t carry on if you continue to disappoint me this way!” Once around was confusing. Twice around was frustrating. And there was no third time, which caused underlying disappointment from the Top. It left me to this day wondering, WTF?

    That sucks. :( I’m sorry to hear that you were treated that way.

    But, just to be clear (I hope I’m not making myself out to be more of a mess than I really am), there has been no punishment and no admonishment. J hasn’t done anything wrong — the fault lies with me, and now we have to figure out how to remedy it.

    I have to be clearer about what I want and when I want it, at least until J is better able to recognize my moods.

    So in the case where a sub doesn’t know which behaviour is pleasing or not, they resort to “safe behaviour”.

    (Perhaps) ironically, tops do the same thing — we resort to what’s safe. I suspect that’s what got me to this point in the first place… but more on that another time.

    I believe subs can become true geniuses when it comes to reading their Top’s attitudes, but seldom can they read their Top’s mind.

    Well said, PhareDuFour. Beautifully stated.

    J and I have talked about this, sort of. I’ve said that I want him to be able to read me, and he’s cautioned me that he can’t read minds. There is a big difference between reading someone’s attitudes and behaviors and reading their mind. One is possible, the other is not. What you’ve written here clarifies these ideas perfectly.

    Thank you for this! :)

    • ….. and a problem with thinking that you *can* read someone elses mind, even mood, is you’re usually wrong. A lot of the time it doesn’t matter too much, but when 9 times out of 10 you’re wrong, you find that generally it’s better just to do a check in – “how are you feeling?” “What did you think about last night?” “I thought it was superb, I’d like to tweak this part, though…. what do you think?” We do this a lot, especially now that we’re once again on new ground.

      • True. If nothing else, I’m an expert at checking in and deconstructing things after the fact. Ok, not so much an ‘expert’ (that implies skill) — it’s more like deconstruction as a hobby. :)

  10. Fascinating, as always. I do love your deconstructions. It is really a pretty universal thing, vanilla or notvanilla. The most interesting thing was you saying that asking spoils it a bit. I do wonder why… But then a ‘spontaneous move to kiss you’ (I’m kinda assuming that’s what you want, rather than being kissed regardless) is a form of asking even if without words, no?

    • I do wonder why… But then a ‘spontaneous move to kiss you’ (I’m kinda assuming that’s what you want, rather than being kissed regardless) is a form of asking even if without words, no?

      You’re right — it is a form of asking. It’s just that I prefer some forms of asking over others. :) (I’m difficult!)

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